On a torque graph it tends to resemble a triangular shape.. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. It is the DESIGNED events that yield CENTERLINE. whats the difference in how the car will run. I have used some cut on a 110 that worked well too, but they never sounded as good as the tight ones. Adding an aftermarket cam to an otherwise stock engine can boost output by 40-60 hp (or more) with no other changes (except possibly a valvespring upgrade). The 120-degree cam minimized torque production through most of the curve, while the 112-degree cam offered more torque but slightly less peak power. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. The #1 intake lobe centerline is usually between 100 Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. I have seen a dyno test where an engine using identical duration and lift made more peak power with a 112 LSA than a 110 LSA. Your email address will not be published. Cylinder-head flow and LSA are directly related: as a rule of thumb, the better the head flows, the wider the LSA can be. The 108-degree cam (blue lines) outperformed the other two, but idle quality suffered. You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . In reality, a cam with 220 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 112 will have the exact same mechanical overlap as a cam with 217 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 109. (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. 12 In terms of power production, the stroker LS3 performed best with the tightest lobe separation angle. So, choose the perfect lobe separation angle for your engine, complying with the requirements of your needs. In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. Lobe separation angles, he continues, are influenced by the camshaft grind. The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. The 110o will make more power overall. Simply put, the lobe center of the camshaft controls where the power curve is applied. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. Introduction. = Tight Below 104 Deg. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Disclaimer: Remember to always consult with an expert first before trying anything at home. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. to use this representational knowledge to guide current and future action. The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. A 110-degree lobe separation angle means that the peak opening points of the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart. ditto with the above. If all the specs remained the same what will going from a 110 to a 112 lsa do to driving characteristics? I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. Mechanical aspects like maximum torque, narrower powerband, higher cranking compression rate, efficient compression rate, effective EGR effect, and lower oil consumption rate increase the car engines efficiency and make it energy efficient. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. I have 108 for LSA and my headlights take awhile to go up when the car is idling. The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. Post Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. If you look at any given cam catalog, you will find that the majority of street-oriented cams fall in this range. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. The idle quality was better with the 112-degree LSA but not as good as the wider 120-degree cam.The ultra-wide 120-degree LSA lost low-speed power and never recovered, but know that this wide LSA is often beneficial on positive displacement, supercharged applications. I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. A cam with a 112lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110lobe center. To demonstrate changes to lobe separation in action, we ordered three camshafts from Comp Cams, all ground with identical lift (0.541 intake and 0.537 exhaust) and duration (230 intake and 236 exhaust) but with three different LSAs: a 101, a 107, and a 113. Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. Maybe even 114. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. The first cam featured a wide 120-degree LSA, while cam number two narrowed the angle to 112 degrees. by Paul H Tue May 13, 2003 1:24 pm, Post 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. 110 LSA: But, contrarily, at 110 LSA, you dont have to face the problem of engine knocking. Okay, have a sigh because you have opened the right door. That notion is completely false. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. Aluminum flywheel & pullies. How To Properly Replace Ignition CoilsContinue. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post More over-simplifications: If you drew a line that divided the intake lobe in half right at the point of maximum lift, then did the same to the exhaust lobe, then measured the distance in cam degrees between the two, that would be the lobe separation angle. Well, If I am not mistaken, you must be looking for which angle has what impact on your engine or which would be the best. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. Looking at 108vs. Realize what the engine is going in, however, as you may not be able to use the wildest cam out there. . Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Also, the wider LSA contributes to chassis stability in drag racing by avoiding the delivery of a ferocious blast of power that would break tire traction. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. Thanks again. The other thing is that you can make more power with a smaller aftermarket cam. The 402 was run with a FAST LSXR LS3 intake and matching 102mm throttle body along with stock LS3 rockers, a Holley HP management system and 7.4-inch hardened pushrods (from Comp Cams). (2002) et rappel sur une carte hors texte. The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! Tuning this cam would be slightly more difficult due to the reduced idle vacuum, but it is hard to argue with all the extra power. The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. If the overlap phase occurs too early, it will create an overly rich condition in the exhaust port, severely decreasing the gas mileage. Is There a Sequence? 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . A cam with a tighter LSA will require a looser torque converter, may not be able to run vacuum-assisted brakes, and doesn't play nice with fuel injection. I'm sorry to disagree with that incredibly well written article, but lobe separation by itself is absolutely freaking meaningless. = Moderately Tight 106-104 Deg. The center of those 2 events is the LOBE CENTERLINE (ECL). The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. It may not display this or other websites correctly. A cam with a 112 lobe center will pull approximately 16-20" of vacuum, which is good for power brakes. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post I think you are asking a lot of a cam . somthing to that aspect. any input is appreciated guys, thanks. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 282/288, Lift .589/.600, Chevy, Big Block, Kit. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. 1966 Toyota Landcruiserunder construction. The 114 LSA is good for a blower or nitros motor. Topping the short-block was a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. ALL bolts are ARP. But, at 106 LSA, the cranking compression may increase above the standard PSI level. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. Elle concerne 264 taxons des degrs divers. The 112-degree cam produced peak numbers of 567 hp at 6,200 rpm and 540 lb-ft of torque while pumping out 511 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. The balance of midrange torque and top-end horsepower lends this LSA range to the majority of street/strip engines. I don't think your duration figures are too outlandish and with the tight LCA and high lift, it should make some big torque. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. Our content is merely suggestive, not intended to use without proper safety precautions and advice. Getting back to the sound of an engine, its no secret that a raucous, lumpy idle is often preferred by street cruisers, regardless of the ill manners and inefficiency of such an engine setup. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. A narrower LCA will increase valve overlap and close the (intake) valve earlier, which explains the typical rougher idler and more midrange behaviour. It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. = Extremely Tight . Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. But an interestingly shocking fact is that this event escalates the air-fuel mixtures reaction rates, causing temperatures to rise and causing the problem of overheating the engine. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more! Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. You are using an out of date browser. I think the compression ratio has something to do with LSA too. Because during the lower units oil change, you can go through the issue that the lower plug, Read More Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything]Continue, Among the crucial parts of a vehicle ignition system is the ignition coil, also called a spark coil. I believe you have got the idea of what you were seeking. Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. dur. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. 108* or narrower lobe separation angle (LSA) is "Narrow" and 114* or wider (up to 117* or 120* for stock cams) is "Wide" , with 110 to 112* being the "normal" hot-rod cam. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. Hopefully it turns out great. The lower the lobe seperation,, ie. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. The introduction of Lunati'snew Bootleggerhydraulic series - with its wicked 108-degree lobe-separation angle, fast opening profile and plenty of area under the lift curve - will serve only to fuel the flames on this heated bench-racing topic. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. 106 LSA: At this LSA, the car machine has to confront the reduction of idle vacuum rate quite often. I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? Ultimately, it makes the 110 LSA an oil-consuming LSA. We use 86b webcams with 1.25 rockers frequently in stroker motors.It's a nice way of getting close to .500" for hot street motors with average heads. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. . Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. 110 LSA: You will find the complete opposite scenario here. Compression willl be 9.75:1. I'd also go to a 110-112 lobe separation angle. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. It had a robust powerband with tons of usable torque. If you changed the lobe separation of a street engine from 112 degrees to 106 and didnt do anything else, adds Kaase. I would have to say that your cam choice sounds like a winner to me. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. such as 290 @.050? 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. i've heard of this being done something about the massive amounts of duration allowes gasses to disipate? It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open.. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. Has anybody experienced it/ tried it? Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. Either learn to fix it, or learn to write checks. Seeking 1/2" ID x 5/8" OD Black Exit Tubing for Radiator Overflow Reservoir. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. A cam card with its myriad numbers, acronyms, and abbreviations is one red-pen stroke away from a failed math test. The article was called "Separation of Power" and they tested 5 cams ranged from 106 to 114 LSA. The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:38 pm, Post Is it a hydraulic roller as well? Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. The lobe separation angle in a natural car engine conveys a considerable impact, especially regarding the maximum torque. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. JavaScript is disabled. Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. pump gas, no additive's as well, runs good, i will put the highest octane in, which is 93.. The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. too much for the street? Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. A lower efficient compression rate leads to a higher fuel consumption rate by your engine to produce higher power. Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. My engine shop builds all kinds of hot rod motors, and they told me that because I am running a 4 speed manual, I will better be able to take advantage of the 108 LSA. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. LSA is the distance from the centerline of the intake lobe to the centerline of exhaust lobe. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post 554"/577" lift. According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". A good amount of idle vacuum or increased idle vacuum found at 110 LSA advances the engines efficiency. 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Most street cams are ground 4 degrees advanced which boosts bottom end, throttle response, vacume, mpg driveability etc. 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. The engine has AFR heads, Crane rockers, a TCI balancer, a Scat Rotating assembly with Mahle pistons, an Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap intake, an MSD ignition, and an Aeromotive fuel system. Wide LSA cams are also applicable in forced-induction applications where less exhaust overlap is required. LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. I know a little about cams. Many later model engines use wide lobe separation angles to reduce overlap for idle quality and fuel economy. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. Pontiac 326 Vs Chevy 327 Differences & Similarities. What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? Nothing makes mouths drop like a car that sounds and looks like it can't keep it self still! 4-Link72, do you run racing gas or pump with 10.5:1 CR? Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. JavaScript is disabled. If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. In general, a stock replacement camshaft with duration of less than 200 degrees will have a lobe separation angle of more than 114 degrees. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. On engines equipped with independent intake and exhaust cams, the LSA is adjustable. Fixing the ignition coils is essential when you experience issues like engine misfire and the Check Engine light that wont go off. A mobile functional near-infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS) was used to record cerebral oxygenation signals in the left prefrontal cortex (LPFC), right prefrontal cortex (RPFC), left parietal lobe (LPL), and right parietal lobe (RPL) and analyze the EC of the cerebral cortex. 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. Once more the engine came apart to install the third test cam, a 107 LSA. " - Voltaire. 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. lobe centers and lobe separation are 2 different things . Well, it is quite a natural event that you may not find the lope separation angle mentioned at the engine body. by mike thompson Tue May 13, 2003 4:03 am, Post To further minimize any dyno variations, the engine's oil and water temperatures were kept the same for each pull. Thanks. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. Now lets move to the exhaust. 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is comparatively a wider LSA; it can generate a massive amount of RPM for the engine. The lobe separation angle is the angle between the two camshaft lobes that act on the valves. on average with a N/A motor if you stick the two cams in at the track the tighter lsa will be faster at the expense of idle quality. Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. 15,215. ohio. If it occurs too late, it will lean out the cylinder and greatly hinder the performance of the engine. After swimming through the entire article, I hope you are now well aware of the 102 vs 110 lobe separation angle. Another difference between the two involves the power curve. This table will create a map in your head, and I bet it will make your understanding crystal clear. A narrower lobe separation angle can provide less power but can also lead to less wear. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated!
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