So done with neat little systems with all the ends tucked in Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. I have to admit-this made me giggle. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. The theology is weak. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. All are welcome to participate. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. Pray for him. @ Julie Anne: My experience with this cult gave me a starting point to question my need for God in my life and showed me how to trust God rather than blindly follow a man-led cult. I just hope and pray that you can see this. It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. As a moderator at my blog, yes, Id shut it down and recommend that they take it to the Calvinism debate thread if they want to discuss it further. However, when a woman has been abused for years by the men in her life, its going to be natural that she lashes out at men and not feel safe around them. Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . Its like asking the old question: Can God create a rock to heavy for Him to throw? I liked that. What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. Yes, God loves you. For example, we should never, ever turn our backs on child sex abuse because the pastor in the church where it happened is one of our good buddies. And when hubby realized he was a sinner in need of forgiveness, he knew nothing about Calvinism or Arminismhe just called himself a believer. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. who needs systems & neat little boxes? Brings to mind the documentary This Emotional Life I saw on PBS. I realize that, even with these qualifications, there are those who find such a God abhorrent, and that there are some who will be upset by the notion of such a God, probably because of some terrible thing they went through. Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. Many of their sayings and actions cannot stand the test of time, the test of logic, and most important the test of loving your neighbour. Prior to learning of the YRR thing, I actually tried to force my self to accept the thinking as presented by these men. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, 9Marks is another group which promotes the fact that they, the local church, get to decide who is saved and not saved. A person who is happy (if that word lacks depth for anyone, you could substitute hopeful, optimistic, joyful, grateful) can affect others with it, 3 generations worth (ie- someone with happiness holds a door for someone carrying a heavy load, that person is then affected positively and they in turn affect someone else with their bolstered happiness). Can Calvinist and non-Calvinist Baptists work together? (for the record.). So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. If this is so, its really astounding. But hes not saying that God is actively driving every aspect of that molecules behavior. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. @ Argo: As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. If it does, then Im find with that. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. @ JeffB: This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. They simply describe the regular, normal way in which God manages or governs his universe. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. Paul admonished the church in Corinth for following men, when they were saying, "I follow Paul" or, "I . But I can tell you this, there are times in the past where I would have characterized the tone of TWW as anti-Calvinist. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. That is the only argument they have. Nicholas what a great link. Id prefer not to use the word to describe myself. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. There are a lot of avenues going on here. 1 Systematic Theology Berkhof, Louis (Author) English (Publication Language) I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. They are his laws; they are not independent in nature. Turn the other cheek when your salvation gets called into question. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other This might be where Romans 8:28 comes in, or the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind. If we do, we must hang our heads in shame. I just ordered the book! And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. Im not sure if Lloyd Legalist is a Calvinista, but they might be related: https://twitter.com/LloydLegalist/status/374295516462739456. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. There is a new evangelism taking place. We are only talking about it in this thread because someone brought it up as a challenge to Reformed theology. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. . I hadnt thought of it that way. every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed, every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. The first document is in the form of a memo and is entitled, "Reformed Red Flags.". The accurate view of TD can be found in the chart that I linked to in my reply to dee. I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. In my mind its all about power. Infused? They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. He said I was wrong. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? I can see why many walk away . I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. Of course the bewildered question of why didnt God? will inevitably come up. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. I hold you in high esteem. Recent Arminians include Charles Finney, Dwight Moody, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and most other "mainline" preachers and evangelists. Something like that. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. This has something that has really been important when writing, commenting, and moderating on ACFJ. Thanks for the recommendation. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see Instead of debating, try to learn from the other person. By which they really mean: God hasnt given you the grace to perceive; or, as my mother in law likes to say to end all discussion I just know that I know that I know. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. Im sure many of us can point out similar starts in our own Christian lives where we later realised that some of the things we were taught were not quite Scriptural, and yet through certain people we came to Christ. For example onannihilationismhe commented that some evangelical theologians have "resurrected the old polemical labels of heresy and aberrational teaching" in order to marginalize other evangelicals holding the view (The mosaic of Christian belief, 2002). We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. However, because of this experience, I was soon led to Christ by a mainstream believer. The few times we have joined her at her church the pastor has focused on being examples of love and doing good in the community. Especially the statements above. (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) Ive been lurking through out this discussion. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html.